Thoughts on Antennas

topic posted Thu, July 28, 2005 - 3:00 PM by  DJ
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Well, since EVERYONE has had a different experience with antennas... I thought I'd pose the question anyway.

I recently bought a Butternut multi-band HF vertical for my home station but i'm having second thoughts about putting it up because most hams i've talked have told me tuning is a MAJOR issue with these type of antennas, as is the need for LOTS of radials in order to get them to function properly on all the bands they're designed for. I don't really have the lot space for the radials so that is going to be a problem.

I DO however, have trees! So, I think I'm going to purhcase a G5RV dipole tomorrow while i'm at HRO in Oakland. Most hams I've talked to have told me they've had very good results over all with these and i've heard plenty of them on the air now too.

I'd like some feedback from any of you "Elmers" out there.

- David, KG6WID
posted by:
DJ
offline DJ
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  • Re: Thoughts on Antennas

    Thu, July 28, 2005 - 3:12 PM
    Go with the vertical, to heck with the G5RV.

    The vertical (did you get the HF6V, or some other model) ought to work fairly decently for you, even without much in the way of radials. What radials will do is lower your radiation pattern, and could affect your impedance some. I'm assuming you've got some sort of antenna tuner, though.

    If you're really limited for space, the Cushcraft R-7000 series works well without any radials at all.

    To get any sort of dipole to work as well as a vertical, you're going to want to have it very long (you want to at least be able to work 40 meters), and very high--Loren's antenna system nonwithstanding.

    Now, here's the real kicker. What's the overall size of your lot? (length by width)? If you really want to have fun with an antenna, I highly recommend the Loop Skywire (by my good dear friend Dave Fischer, ex WØMHS). It gets out, period, and it's even hard to see unless you're really looking for the wires. I may have the .pdf of it somewhere, if you'd like to try it.

    73! (and ask me about my quad someday!)
    • DJ
      DJ
      offline 14

      Re: Thoughts on Antennas

      Thu, July 28, 2005 - 4:18 PM
      yep, have a tuner. That's no issue. It would seem that I'd need the counter-poise kit for the HFV9 though, if i'm going to get it off the ground. I know you can mount them on the ground but i'm not sure if that would be favorable over a dipole up 20-30 feet off the ground or not?

      Thoughts.

      I'll look into the Loop Skywire but i'm not sure if that'll work for me or not.

      Thanks for the input.

      73

      - David, KG6WID
      • Re: Thoughts on Antennas

        Thu, July 28, 2005 - 4:39 PM
        >It would seem that I'd need the counter-poise kit for the HFV9 though, if i'm going to get it off the ground.

        Some would argue that's a ploy to get you to buy the kit. My advice would be to get some wire at your local #$%@ shack, some round wire lugs, and simply take a spade to make trenches through the grass. Run the wire to the trenches, connect the lug to the spot on the antenna, and off you go.

        If you've got trees, a loop skywire will run rings around any sort of G5RV. Better still, try to get one up one day, and try some A/B stuff with the vertical.

        Gee, antennas are fun!
        • JR
          JR
          offline 2

          Re: Thoughts on Antennas

          Sun, August 7, 2005 - 7:48 AM
          I agree the vertical will work great..
          Now Warren I have a question.
          Since the J-pole workd so great for two meters and above, wonder if there is someone of if you know, can thej-pole be scaled up a bit for an HF band, I realize the size of a full size on is not feaseable, but perhaps some linerally loading of the elements, or gasp.. some coils. Could it be long enough with perhaps a stinger at the top, adjustable of course, perhaps a screwdriver type of adjustment.. I do a lot of reading but find nothing about expermentation with the j-pole. I don't have a antenna program or know of one that will take the problems and work with it. Any ideas, or directions.. Oh.. I live in a 5th wheel trailer so space is limited,, I have a vertical and use it when I can. but another antenna project can't hurt., can it?
          • Re: Thoughts on Antennas

            Mon, August 8, 2005 - 4:28 AM
            I run a J-pole on 10m, but it is a wire J-pole and runs horizontally.

            The original reason I built this antenna is because I used to live on a very narrow lot. I did not have the space necessary to put up a proper dipole and have the feedline come off of it at the correct angle. The wire J-pole, on the other hand, could be just rolled out on the clothesline and it worked well.

            When I moved to my current location (where I have much more space to work with), I just installed the J-pole in my attic, and it works well enough.

            I don't see any reason why a wire J-pole could not be constructed for 20m, or even 40m and fit on my current lot, running as a horizontal. It solves the problem for when you really need an end-fed antenna, not just for when you need a vertical.
            • Re: Thoughts on Antennas

              Mon, August 8, 2005 - 9:28 AM
              Well, when you're running a J-pole like vertical antenna, it's expecting to use the ground as the other half of the image; when you twist it horizontally, you affect not only the base impedance, but the radiation pattern, which is going to be much more vertical, depending on your height above ground.

              However, as I've implied earlier, there's antenna theory, and there's putting it into practice (putting something up and making contacts). An antenna for 40 done that way might not have a whole lot of bandwidth.

              Then again, this past weekend, I worked about 12 people on 80 CW in the NAQP--using 5 W and my R-7000, which isn't supposed to resonate on that band at all. Again, RF has got to go somewhere. So long as it isn't heat!
              • Re: Thoughts on Antennas

                Tue, August 9, 2005 - 5:51 AM
                A J-pole antenna is a 1/2 wave. It does not need a ground reference. The lower 1/3 of the antenna provides impedence matching so as to end-feed a 1/2 wave radiator (which is the upper 2/3 of the antenna). A J-pole is perfectly capable of operating in free space.
                • DJ
                  DJ
                  offline 14

                  Re: Thoughts on Antennas

                  Fri, August 12, 2005 - 2:57 PM
                  anyone ever run one of these multi-band veritcals without the radials, using a counterpoise instead? That's probably what i'll have to do because of space limitations.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Thoughts on Antennas

                    Fri, August 12, 2005 - 3:06 PM
                    Yep. You might even get some decent ground response, depending on your soil conductivity.

                    I know someone who packed his mounting pipe with rock salt in an attempt to get a better ground.

                    Give it a try, and see how it does! Some of the most exciting antenna work to come out lately has been with raised monopoles without radials.

                    Have you thought of roof mounting at all, or perhaps getting one of the physically small beams such as the Cushcraft MA5B or Butternut Butterfly HF6B's?
                    • DJ
                      DJ
                      offline 14

                      Re: Thoughts on Antennas

                      Fri, August 12, 2005 - 8:45 PM
                      I wanted to get a multiband so i could "dable" in as many bands as possible to get me 'feet wet' and learn. I'm hoping the next property my wife and i buy has a bit more room and i'll be albe to experiment a bit more with antennas. As for right now, my space is limited (small back yard...and MOST of my lot space is my front yard....so that's out). I'm not sure about roof mounting. I thought about it but i don't really know anyone who has experience doing that (i surely don't) so i'd probably have to pay a contractor to do it.

                      I've heard about the rock before but always thought that was a myth.

                      thanks for the feedback.

                      73
                      • Re: Thoughts on Antennas

                        Sun, August 14, 2005 - 5:26 AM
                        I'm not sure if rock salt will do much while it is dry, but if it becomes dissolved in water, it increases the conductivity of the water. If that, then, becomes part of the ground around the base of your antenna, then it increases your ground conductivity.

                        It will also kill off most plants, so keep that in mind.

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